Atlantic Archives: There are many contemporary Black American Feminist activists and intellectuals who are frequently referenced in the Black Brazilian struggle. But we are encouraging Black Americans to learn about the Black radical tradition in Brazil. As a militant Black woman, who are some of your references and why?
Karine Damasceno: I think an important reference for me is Ivannide Rodrigues Santa Bárbara, a militant, dark-skinned woman like me, who has been fighting politically for over 40 years, has a public life within social movements, is a leader within the political struggle of the workers here in Feira de Santana and is a veteran of the Black women’s movement. She is without a doubt the greatest Black leader in Feira de Santana. She raised our issues to a national scale and is central in the fight against racism in Brazil- so she is my main political reference and we talk every day.
The second reference I want to acknowledge is Vilma Reis, who’s a sociologist, a militant of the Black women’s movement, a brilliant woman who in recent years – based on debates with sisters, with other Black women – has lent her name and her Black body to fight for spaces of power that are fundamental for us as Black women, as Black people. She’s also a great reference, it takes courage to make this journey and Vilma Reis has done it for us.
AA: As we look forward, based on the lessons from your mentors, tell our readers about your vision for the future of your country.
KTD: I want a country without racism. I envision a utopia. I want black youth to be able to fully live their childhood, to reach maturity, to be able to make choices, to have all paths available to them, to be able to choose whether or not to go to university, to choose the course that feels right for them. I want young black people to be prepared to run this country. We are working towards that.
I want this future for the country, I don’t necessarily believe that I will see it, but we are working to make it happen and in my 44 years of life and 21 years of militancy, I’ve seen a lot happen. I already see many more of our Black youth at the university, I have witnessed a lot of change politically, but I want to see more. I want us to be represented. I want Black people to be represented in every space in society.
AA: This too is an ongoing fight in the history of African descendants all over the diaspora. How can Black Americans be better political allies for Afro Brazilians? What should they focus on, in this year’s elections?
KTD: Going back to my experience in the United States, of course, I wasn’t naive – not even about African Americans – I’m trained not to have that political naivety. So when I went to the United States, especially the last time, I chose to go to an HBCU. I went to a city that had a significant Black population and I understood that I was going to meet my sister and brothers. I looked at them and understood that we were part of the same people- the Black people- me in Brazil and them in the United States. Not only do we share a common past, our future is somehow also linked because we have a common challenge to face.
I still believe this, but the relationship I had with most of the people I had contact with, gave the impression that they don’t see us this way. As if we were “the others” for the African Americans. I’m not generalizing because I also had very good experiences with African-Americans- but I noticed that these experiences were with people who either knew Brazil already or were motivated by academic research, so they had more information about Brazil than most people. So, I managed to have a very respectful relationship, even experiencing a brotherhood. But this wasn’t predominant.
I was inside of a Black university, you know, I was treated very well, but there was a certain distance. For example, I wasn’t invited to the parties they organized among African Americans. We would meet on campus in the common spaces where we had lunch but after that, they didn’t choose to be with me. I was embarrassed. But, on the other hand, I met African Americans who welcomed me very well.
So, all this is to say that I think that when I noticed the difference in behavior between those who want to know – or know Brazil – and those who don’t have much information about Brazil (which is the majority). I think that to be an ally you need knowledge. You need to be willing to understand Brazil. One thing I observe is that people feel sorry for you because you don’t speak English, the nicest people feel sorry for you because you don’t speak English. “Why don’t you speak English?”, but they aren’t willing to speak Portuguese or to learn to speak Portuguese. And I know it’s not just about Portuguese… that Americans generally behave this way. I don’t see any kind of interest in most people in speaking the language or even in reading the books or articles that deal with Brazil and the United States.
I think there is a predominance of ignorance that needs to be overcome in order to build an alliance. More than an alliance, when I look at these people and see sisters and brothers, part of the same people, I want to build a brotherhood, a sisterhood relationship with these people, but we need to get to know each other. I think that here in Brazil we have a lot of information about African Americans because they are at the “center of the world”.
The United States has a potency, so we receive a lot of information about the American way of life. The Black movement in the United States is a point of reference for us and we have no problem admitting that, but it is not possible for any people in the world to think that they can face racism by ignoring the Black experience in Brazil. This fight is global, it’s not just the United States, it’s not just Brazil, the Caribbean. It’s necessary to open up so that we can face racism and emerge victorious from this secular confrontation.
About the elections… I think we, Black people, Black women in Brazil, are positioning ourselves. I think it would be interesting for our journey that people start to look at what we’re saying, for African-Americans to find out what we’re saying and why we’re saying it. Today we have the internet in our favor making the exchange of information more possible. It’s necessary for African-Americans to know that here we were already saying “no” to the current president. We were incisive in this sense and it is important for people to know that just the fact we said “no” made many racists, sexists, and homophobes, many people were attracted to the conservatives that won in 2018 because they were aimed to attack us.
We keep saying “no” to the current government, in the figure of Bolsonaro who’s running again. We keep saying “no” and it was no surprise about what happened during these last four years.
It’s important for the United States to observe what we are trying to build for Brazilian society, an alternative to the current power. More than ever we are investing in Black candidates – especially Black women. We want Black men and Black women in the positions of power and we as Black women are very firm in our purpose of electing the largest number of Black women. This is important because we are not thinking about change just for this group, we are proposing another alternative- building another society for all the people, and we are able to contribute directly in the spaces of power to make this happen.
We (Black women) have a tradition in this sense, of taking care of people. We have a tradition of thinking about strategies to overcome difficulties. So I think that’s what I hope African Americans will look for when they look at Brazil. I hope that they can access this information and we can overcome racism here, in the United States, and other places in the world and not need to continue reaffirming our humanity.
Translation services by Dante Friere
